Chapter 12: Church - How I Go without Getting Angry

Interesting title of chapter to say the least. I am sure that Mark and I will pay special attention to this week's discussion. And to start off without saying, I think it is next to impossible to never get upset or angry at church. I work at church. I get angry at church. The church is an imperfect institution, because it is created and exists because of imperfect people. What makes church "work" is the power of God and His Spirit that breathes into the institution and empowers it to minister. Enough for my soapbox, let's look at some of Miller's thoughts.

And by the way, since this is a "church" subject and I am asking for your honest impressions, do not hesitate to be honest. Mark and I both learn and grow and help model the church into what the people desire. Be honest, we won't be offended.

(1) Miller lists three things that he does not like about "church". The first, "I felt like people were trying to sell me Jesus." Second, "They seemed to be parrots for the Republican Party." And finally, "The churches I would attend would embrace the war metaphor." What do you think about Miller's list? Do these things bother you? Do you feel the same way as he does? What else would you add to the list?

(2) Miller then goes on to describe the new church he joined, Imago-Dei. He lists the things that he likes about the church. The first, "It is spiritual." (not religious) Second, "Imago Dei supports the arts." (free expression) Third, "Community." (Part of a famiy - loneliness is not good) And finally, "Authenticity." (being yourself) What do you think of Miller's list? Do you agree with these things? Do you see these at FBC Elon? What would you add to the list about FBC Elon?

(3) Miller understands that people can get frustrated about church. When you talk about faith and religion, people take it personally. He gives a three step plan to do so you don't get angry at church. First, "Pray that God will show you a church filled with people who share your interests and values." Second, "Go to the church God shows you." Third, "Don't hold grudges against any other churches. God loves those churches almost as much as He loves you." Based on Miller's three step plan, do you think this would work? Based on previous church attending experience, would this have changed which church you attended? Which one of these steps do you think would be the hardest for you?

I look forward to the discussion...

Chapter 11 - Confession: Coming Out of the Closet

Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. - James 5:16

If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9

Mark here. Wow! This chapter really, really got to me. I found myself thinking about that Crusader's Cross that I talked about a couple of weeks ago in church. There are people walking around our world with open wounds that disciples of Christ have inflicted upon them. Even if we have not been directly involved, we carry that burden. The story of the confessional really blew me away. I found myself wanting to go out and do the same thing. I guess that is the first discussion point I wanted to throw out there. What did you think of the confessional? Would you ever want to do something like that? What do you think would be the value of such an opportunity?

We often talk of confessing our sins to God. Do you think there is a need to confess to another person as well? What are the conditions under which you would confess your sins and struggles to someone else?

In this chapter, Miller talks about Rick, who believed evangelism was reaching a felt need. Miller described evangelism to a radio host as talking about Jesus and his own journey to believing that Jesus exists and that Jesus liked him. What is your definition of evangelism? What is the difference between evangelism and "the network marketing guy trying to build my down line"?

Throughout the book, Miller has talked about embracing Christian spirituality, not Christianity. I don't think we have really asked this question yet: what do you think he means by Christian spirituality? What does that term mean to you? What do you think Miller means when he says that he is embracing Christian spirituality and not Christianity?

Belief: The Birth of Cool

David here. I hope everyone has been enjoying reading Donald Miller's "Blue Like Jazz". I know it has brought many questions up front about my faith, and the tenth chapter titled "Belief" does the same. Miller confronts the idea of why Christianity is not more popular than it is, especially with the claims of faith and salvation that it includes, and what it would take to make Christianity "cool" so more people would be drawn in. I think that is a new approach in church ministry, to make church "cool". Before we get to some specifics on the chapter, what do you think about the change that many churches are taking to make Christianity "cool"?

Here are a few more questions that came to mind through this chapter...

1. Miller was having a conversation with one of his friend's mothers about love and marriage, and she made the comment, "...when a relationship is right, it is no more possible to wake up and want out of the marriage than it is to wake up and stop believing in God. What is, is what it." What do you believe about believing in God - can someone fall out of "belief" in God?

2. A little fun question that Miller asked himself and wanted to see what your response was, "Why is it that we turn pop figures (celebrities) into idols?" Looking forward to this answer...

3. "Satan, who I believe exists as much as I believe Jesus exists, wants us to believe meaningless things for meaningless reasons. Can you imagine if Christians actually believed that God was trying to rescue us from the pit of our own self-addiction?" Imagine that world for a second, where we do not focus on ourselves but focus on others and the needs around us. What would this look like?

4. Miller states that the problem with deep belief is that it costs something. What has your belief in Christ cost you? Or has it?

5. Have you ever followed someone or a cause because they were "passionate" about it? Miller states that people will follow you if you are passionate. What was the situation/person and was it positive or not?

6. "Dying for something is easy because it is associated with glory. Living for something is the hard thing. Living for something extends beyond fashion, glory, or recognition. We live for what we believe." Taking this quote into consideration, what does your life testify? Miller states that his life testified that he was the most important person in the world. What does your life testify?

Take up your cross and follow me...

Chapter 9: Change - New Starts at Ancient Faith

[The word of the LORD] said, "Go out and stand on the mountain before the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by." Now there was a great wind, so strong that it was splitting mountains and breaking rocks in pieces before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind; and after the wind and earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake; and after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of sheer silence."
- 1 Kings 19:11-12

I couldn't help but think of Elijah's encounter with God, described above, while I was reading Miller's story of his moment of change at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Nature made the sounds nature always makes, and yet God was found and experienced beyond these occurrences at a level that the senses could not comprehend.

More than that, Elijah was on that mountain because he had a whole lot of questions and doubts about himself even though he seemed to have it all together. What we forget about this story is that Elijah has fled to the mountain after his greatest success, the defeat of the prophets of Baal and the end of the drought in Israel. He seems to be at the top of the mountain in his life, and yet here he is hiding in a cave afraid saying, "O LORD, take away my life, for I am no better than my ancestors" (1 Kings 19:4).

Miller states, "The days and weeks before a true commitment to Jesus can be terrible and lonely." Do you agree? Do you think that these "terrible" times are a product of spiritual change or are they the reason why we allow spiritual change to finally happen in our lives?

In talking to his pastor about why he felt he needed to get away, Miller said, "Something got crossed in the wires, and I became the person I should be and not the person I am. I feel like I should go back and get the person I am and bring him here to the person I should be. Are you following me at all?" Are you? How do you understand what Miller is saying? Have you ever felt like this? What causes this feeling in our lives? .

Miller felt that he had to go to the "green lumpy places" to be able to find the change he needed. Where are the "green lumpy places" in your life? Where are the places you go to reclaim who God is calling you to be?

Under the stars, Miller concluded that it was a great responsibility to be human. What do you understand our human responsibility to be?

Chapter 8: "gods: Our Tiny Invisible Friends"

David again. I hope you have been enjoying following Donald Miller's faith story through the first seven chapters of his book Blue Like Jazz. Chapter 8 provides a turning point in his faith story, a journey from questioning himself, questioning God, questioning the world, to a true understanding of his own personal faith and what he had been hiding behind. He ends chapter 8 with this line, "After that moment, things started to get interesting." As you can see from the chapter and tell from the following questions, Miller undergoes some serious soul searching to come to a place of honesty in his faith.

So now for some discussion questions...

(1) Miller had a spiritual life and faith, yet he had an occurrence listening to one of his favorite authors and a following discussion with his best friend, Tony the Beat Poet, that opened his eyes up to true faith. Other than your salvation story (that we have already shared in past posts), can you share a time or event where your eyes have been opened to what true faith really is, and what you are called to have? I look forward to hearing them...

(2) Have you ever been drawn to another religion's ideologies or principles - Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hindusim, etc.? If so, which one and what attracted you to this specific religion? Was your attraction based on what you personally wanted in a religion or what the religion truly taught?

(3) Have you ever been "bored" with Jesus and Christianity? What led you to these feelings? Was it something that someone did, a church did or did not do, or something that you were failing to do in your own life?

(4) Miller on page 92 says, "God is not here to worship me, to mold Himself into something that will help me fulfill my level of comfort." What do you think of this statement? Have you been to that point before of making God "fit in a box" to meet your needs? What helped you get out?

(5) Miller's defining moment is described on page 94 when he says, "I realized in an instant that I desired false gods because Jesus wouldn't jump through my hoops, and I realized that, like Tony, my faith was about image and ego, not about practicing spirituality". Kind of a different question, but what percentage of church-goers today are going for their own image or ego? Justify your percentage. Does it somehow relate to your own faith journey?

Spiritual "Defining moments" are scattered throughout the Bible. We have Moses's conversation with God about being a worthy mouthpiece for Him. We have Peter's picnic dream where God enlightens him on dietary restrictions that Peter thought were essential to living a life of faith (boy was he wrong). We have Peter's denial of Christ three times before Jesus was crucified. These "defining moments" mold us into who we are today, and who we are for God. Allow these moments to continue to mold you.

Chapter 7: Grace - The Beggar's Kingdom

Mark here. As you can tell from this week's title, Miller focuses in on the concept of grace.

Miller talks about his days as a fundamentalist Christian in this way: "I used to get really ticked about preachers who talked too much about grace, because they tempted me to not be disciplined. I figured what people needed was a kick in the butt, and if I failed at godliness it was because those around me weren't trying hard enough. I believed if word got out about grace, the whole church was going to turn into a brothel."

What is grace? Does the Christian understanding of grace challenge the ability to live a righteous life? If so, why? If not, why do you think Miller and others would have had this concern?

What do you think is the hardest thing to understand about accepting God's grace? Is there a Scripture or teaching that has helped you in this area?

Miller says, "I love to give charity, but I don't want to be charity. This is why I have so much trouble with grace." How do you respond to this statement?

Miller's pastor says, "The ability to accept God's unconditional grace and ferocious love is all the fuel we need to obey Him in return." I think about the prophet Hosea. In his message to Israel, Hosea reveals the affect of our sin on God as well as the power of God's love and grace, all from God's perspective. Nowhere is this more clearly seen than in Hosea 11.

The chapter starts with God saying, "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. The more I called them, the more they went from me; ...".

God's anger grows as Israel's sin cuts Him deeper, as seen in verses 5-7: "They shall return to the land of Egypt ... because they have refused to return to me. The sword shall rage against their cities ... My people are bent on turning away from me; so they are appointed to the yoke, and none shall remove it."

And then, in verse 8, at the height of God's anger, He cries, "How can I give you up, O Ephraim! How can I hand you over, O Israel! ... My heart recoils within me, my compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my fierce anger, ... for I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come to destroy."

What does Hosea's prophetic message reveal about God, His grace, and our righteousness?

Chapter 6: Redemption - The Sexy Carrots

David here. It has been good to have discussions on our blog over the last couple of weeks. I want to encourage all those who have used this avenue to continue to do so, and spread the word to your friends and family. You never know who might want to participate. If you are new to the blog, jump in the discussion and enjoy. "Blue Like Jazz" by Donald Miller can lead to some interesting discussions and topics, as you can tell from the title of chapter 6.

Miller in this chapter continues to talk about the draw of humanity to darkness, not the "light". Talking about human nature and its self centered focus, Miller concludes by saying that if we try to be a "good" person without God, basically we are destined to fail. Our nature draws us back to our sinful past and present. So my first question is this, have you ever tried to be a "good" person without God? Did you succeed (or are you succeeding) or did you fail (or are you failing)?

Miller also talks about his initial conversion experience of salvation and how everything shortly after had a "fascinating appeal"? Would you describe your initial salvation experience and the time shortly after the same way? Miller later says he was disappointed when these feelings went away? Take a moment and share an experience when that initial "faith rush" started to waver and how it felt to you.

Quoting from Miller, "I don't think, however, there are many people who can stay happy for long periods of time." What do you think about this quote? Are you or do you know someone who always seems to be happy? What is the secret (or is there one)?

After sharing stories from his youth, Miller makes the quote about freedom and need, "I think the things we want most in life, the things we think will set us free, are not the things we need." What do you think?

Miller concludes this chapter by saying "I found myself trying to love the right things without God's help, and it was impossible." This reminds me of one of my favorite passages in the Bible:

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil. It will be healing for your flesh and a refreshment for your body." - Proverbs 3:5-8

I look forward to the discussion...